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  • #16
    Originally posted by MaDuiN View Post
    The point of Downbless is to decrease the max hp of mages to as low as possible. That way, if you use both Plague and Downbless, and keep checking if the mage casts Bless again, downblessing him again, you can keep his Max HP to so low, that you could actually 2 or 3 hit him. Lets say you deal 500 damage per hit. With Powerful Blow + Seraph aura, you could potentially deal much more than 1k damage with that hit. Another of these will reduce the mage's HP from Max to Zero. That way, you dont have to go through all the potions. It doesnt help you in any other way than having the advantage of finishing the mages without burning them out of potions. Its the classic way to win the battle - you dont have to go through all their resources - its enough if you hit once or twice hard enough to cripple him to his death.

    Of course, both downbless and plague are not as useful against any other classes as Mages, and especially against low-endurance mages. It can work against Paladins, but they tend to have not-as-good wisdom, and they usually have more endurance than mages.

    Downbless and Plague both can work, or they can be waste of stat points. It all depends who you are facing in PVP. Plague can have it's use at Colosseum, but I never XP'd there past level 100, so I wouldnt know.
    Oh i more than understand the theory behind downbless.. But really what warrior needs a dbless to beat a mage? 2-3 hits without dbless, or atleast make them spam pot key till they explode anyway.

    I get it though, and on a server that has 4x and lvl 180 is realistic i would tend to agree. But on saga we are 3x and lvl 150 seems to be the wall that is considered a high lvl. I just personally would rather take the extra swing for 500-1k damage rather than get the wis and cast dbless. I think getting to a better weapon and having the extra str, or agil for heros /glads, is a better stat choice imo. There are very few perfect builds on Saga, mostly because to make a good dbless warrior means getting a high lvl, and Saga high lvl is alot of work. If a player is hardcore enough to try, then by all means go for dbless.

    Comment


    • #17
      All this is true for a base Vircom server. I had a cursory look through 4th saga's special items, and the only one that really stood out from Vircom's ones is Bracers of The Warlord.

      1. Due to the mathematics of diminishing returns, 115 earth power vs 100 earth power is actually very strong, especially if you are on a server with spells that allow for "pure" mage levelling (ie a dark mage with only dark spells), meaning incredibly high dodge. Even more so if you are going for some dodge on your own warrior.

      2. Unless you NEED different resistances to level somewhere in particular (unlikely, you can always itemize for specific lvling resistances), get earth resistance.

      3. Downbless is more or less useless, except to annoy people and make sure your opponents don't have a 1k wis bless. If it bugs you that much, make a lvl 65 human that has 102 wis and do it that way. The only viable reason to go more than 72 wis is if you need true sight. Otherwise, stay at 72 wis for invisibility. And even then, I would consider going 174 int instead of 102 wis and getting detect invisibility at 150 int. Surge is wayyyy more powerful than downbless. No high-wis character should do enough damage to you to kill you in a pot fight, regardless of downbless.

      4. For bracers, don't use bracers of battle, use Bracers of Leaves (+30 earth resistance), unless you can get your hands on Bracers of The Warlord. I don't know how hard they are to get.

      5. Get at least 76 int for mana shield. This is required, at the very least for earth resistance. I would highly recommend going 114 int for plague and major combat sense.

      6. If you have the time/cash to get a Hero's amulet, go 75 agility for Hero's and gladiator's ring.

      7. Earliest Final build would look something like this : 300/300/75/72/114 - 3x lvl 139. After that just pump strength.. good values to aim for are 425 (Halberd), 459 (Ancient Scimitar).

      Yes, I would heavily favour AP over Starshade Armor or whatever your 180 end armor set is called. Unless your server has ridiculously overpowered high strength weapons (like Realmud and the Titanium Blade+3 at 632 strength), the extra HP and armor/resist is a must.
      Last edited by Stinga; 11-21-2012, 03:15 AM.
      ~Stinga
      stinga@t4c.com

      Est solarus oth mithas

      Comment


      • #18
        Originally posted by Stinga View Post
        All this is true for a base Vircom server. I had a cursory look through 4th saga's special items, and the only one that really stood out from Vircom's ones is Bracers of The Warlord.

        1. Due to the mathematics of diminishing returns, 115 earth power vs 100 earth power is actually very strong, especially if you are on a server with spells that allow for "pure" mage levelling (ie a dark mage with only dark spells), meaning incredibly high dodge. Even more so if you are going for some dodge on your own warrior.

        2. Unless you NEED different resistances to level somewhere in particular (unlikely, you can always itemize for specific lvling resistances), get earth resistance.

        3. Downbless is more or less useless, except to annoy people and make sure your opponents don't have a 1k wis bless. If it bugs you that much, make a lvl 65 human that has 102 wis and do it that way. The only viable reason to go more than 72 wis is if you need true sight. Otherwise, stay at 72 wis for invisibility. And even then, I would consider going 174 int instead of 102 wis and getting detect invisibility at 150 int. Surge is wayyyy more powerful than downbless. No high-wis character should do enough damage to you to kill you in a pot fight, regardless of downbless.

        4. For bracers, don't use bracers of battle, use Bracers of Leaves (+30 earth resistance), unless you can get your hands on Bracers of The Warlord. I don't know how hard they are to get.

        5. Get at least 76 int for mana shield. This is required, at the very least for earth resistance. I would highly recommend going 114 int for plague and major combat sense.

        6. If you have the time/cash to get a Hero's amulet, go 75 agility for Hero's and gladiator's ring.

        7. Earliest Final build would look something like this : 300/300/75/72/114 - 3x lvl 139. After that just pump strength.. good values to aim for are 425 (Halberd), 459 (Ancient Scimitar).

        Yes, I would heavily favour AP over Starshade Armor or whatever your 180 end armor set is called. Unless your server has ridiculously overpowered high strength weapons (like Realmud and the Titanium Blade+3 at 632 strength), the extra HP and armor/resist is a must.
        1. I cannot agree with the 100 epower -> 115 epower difference. Or well yeah, I kinda agree, but even so, I would rather use those seraph points to survive against the toughest mages on your server, usually dark mages or air mages. Im guessing this is the difference with the people - others go purely for epower eresists and try to manage against high dodge 180end dark mages who can outdrain you - I probably never saw an warrior without dark resists win dark mages. But then again, there aint much dark mages around on the old non-add-on servers. So Im guessing, for this specific situation, you are propably more correct than I am.

        2. This is partly true aswell, but the most important thing when you build a warrior is - why are you building it? If it is to PVP, you should focus every seraph point on winning as many type's of characters as possible. Or some specific type of character. But I would not get seraph points to level up easier.

        3. On this specific server yes - downbless is useless. If you only manage to get to levels 150-160, its not worth using all those stat points in wisdom. Stay with 60 or 72. Plague however, would still be more viable than downbless, because it works against every character, and because major combat sense is probably the most rewarding spell of warrior's. Surge would be interesting to go for, but unless you have some sort of add-on battlemage weapons, I still think +33% power to earth is not worth 60 stat points.

        4. I agree 100% here.

        5. Exactly.

        6. Yes, warrior needs both of these items as badly as Mage needs his robes. Powerful Blow is warriors way to suddenly kill someone - and it helps your damage output against monsters so much as well.

        7. That is one thing I was calculating. If he goes for the next weapon, it is going to be too high level. That is why I was wondering having dBless with 300 str 300 end.

        Comment


        • #19
          Don't forget that 4th Saga is a 1.71 server and for that reason, the Stun Blow skill is insanely overpowered thanks to a T4CDev bug that was fixed early november of last year but only got applied in NMS-Revolution server. Realmud got it fixed not that long ago thanks to 1.72. I think this kind of bug is worthy of a high priority hotfix to be applied to all servers as fast as possible, like how the Armor Penetration bug was handled back in 1.60-1.61 days.

          Rant aside, I studied all 1.71 servers addon and wrote about OP characters you can build with maxed out Stun Blow skills thanks to addons. For 4th Saga, here's what I came up with :

          150 125 445 64 174 - lvl 157 3x

          Pretty standard build if you ask me (the old boring bluestone/surge archer that wreaked havoc on all addonless servers), but it's the character beneficing the most from 4th Saga new stuff. Uses Royal Archer armor parts that gives SB for +15, complete them with copper radiating armor (I assume you'll need the complete copper radiating armor to survive on high end places anyway), equip the aforementionned bracers of the warlord for +10 SB, Gladiator's Amulet for +15 SB (miles better than Hero's currently, well worth the 250 attack required even for an archer), and the good old Ring of the Lion for an additionnal +5 SB. With surge powered entangle and OP Stun Blow skill, melee characters will have an hard time actually hitting you.

          Sorry for this sweet AP warrior. :/

          Comment


          • #20
            Originally posted by Stinga View Post
            All this is true for a base Vircom server. I had a cursory look through 4th saga's special items, and the only one that really stood out from Vircom's ones is Bracers of The Warlord.

            1. Due to the mathematics of diminishing returns, 115 earth power vs 100 earth power is actually very strong, especially if you are on a server with spells that allow for "pure" mage levelling (ie a dark mage with only dark spells), meaning incredibly high dodge. Even more so if you are going for some dodge on your own warrior.

            2. Unless you NEED different resistances to level somewhere in particular (unlikely, you can always itemize for specific lvling resistances), get earth resistance.

            3. Downbless is more or less useless, except to annoy people and make sure your opponents don't have a 1k wis bless. If it bugs you that much, make a lvl 65 human that has 102 wis and do it that way. The only viable reason to go more than 72 wis is if you need true sight. Otherwise, stay at 72 wis for invisibility. And even then, I would consider going 174 int instead of 102 wis and getting detect invisibility at 150 int. Surge is wayyyy more powerful than downbless. No high-wis character should do enough damage to you to kill you in a pot fight, regardless of downbless.

            4. For bracers, don't use bracers of battle, use Bracers of Leaves (+30 earth resistance), unless you can get your hands on Bracers of The Warlord. I don't know how hard they are to get.

            5. Get at least 76 int for mana shield. This is required, at the very least for earth resistance. I would highly recommend going 114 int for plague and major combat sense.

            6. If you have the time/cash to get a Hero's amulet, go 75 agility for Hero's and gladiator's ring.

            7. Earliest Final build would look something like this : 300/300/75/72/114 - 3x lvl 139. After that just pump strength.. good values to aim for are 425 (Halberd), 459 (Ancient Scimitar).

            Yes, I would heavily favour AP over Starshade Armor or whatever your 180 end armor set is called. Unless your server has ridiculously overpowered high strength weapons (like Realmud and the Titanium Blade+3 at 632 strength), the extra HP and armor/resist is a must.
            Awesome, tyvm all of this helps a lot, will for sure be going for 114 int.

            Originally posted by Jeska View Post
            Don't forget that 4th Saga is a 1.71 server and for that reason, the Stun Blow skill is insanely overpowered thanks to a T4CDev bug that was fixed early november of last year but only got applied in NMS-Revolution server. Realmud got it fixed not that long ago thanks to 1.72. I think this kind of bug is worthy of a high priority hotfix to be applied to all servers as fast as possible, like how the Armor Penetration bug was handled back in 1.60-1.61 days.

            Rant aside, I studied all 1.71 servers addon and wrote about OP characters you can build with maxed out Stun Blow skills thanks to addons. For 4th Saga, here's what I came up with :

            150 125 445 64 174 - lvl 157 3x

            Pretty standard build if you ask me (the old boring bluestone/surge archer that wreaked havoc on all addonless servers), but it's the character beneficing the most from 4th Saga new stuff. Uses Royal Archer armor parts that gives SB for +15, complete them with copper radiating armor (I assume you'll need the complete copper radiating armor to survive on high end places anyway), equip the aforementionned bracers of the warlord for +10 SB, Gladiator's Amulet for +15 SB (miles better than Hero's currently, well worth the 250 attack required even for an archer), and the good old Ring of the Lion for an additionnal +5 SB. With surge powered entangle and OP Stun Blow skill, melee characters will have an hard time actually hitting you.

            Sorry for this sweet AP warrior. :/
            next time i ask how to abuse bugs on a char im not building, ill be sure to ask!

            Comment


            • #21
              My pleasure, Poch. Just to be clear : get your end first. All 300 of it. HP gained per level is calculated from current base end. If you REALLY want to do things right, get 300 end, then 90 int, then 60 wis.. you get extra mana per level per 30 points in wis and int, with int giving you more. If you can get your hands on some sweet GM weapons (Tidal Blade, Windslash, Tempest) to level with, it might be feasible ^^ although I would advocate getting mana shield (76 int) soon-ish after AP if you want to do group levelling at TPs.

              1. I cannot agree with the 100 epower -> 115 epower difference. Or well yeah, I kinda agree, but even so, I would rather use those seraph points to survive against the toughest mages on your server, usually dark mages or air mages. Im guessing this is the difference with the people - others go purely for epower eresists and try to manage against high dodge 180end dark mages who can outdrain you - I probably never saw an warrior without dark resists win dark mages. But then again, there aint much dark mages around on the old non-add-on servers. So Im guessing, for this specific situation, you are propably more correct than I am.
              And I would argue that the 115 earth power would help just as much against your dark mage regardless, especially if the warrior has dodge and therefore less attack. No lvl 140 dark mage is going to outdrain an AB+3 with AP and plague/major.

              2. This is partly true aswell, but the most important thing when you build a warrior is - why are you building it? If it is to PVP
              I'm not familiar with 4th Saga, but in general if you build a warrior for anything other than PVP you're doing it wrong.

              And lol @ Jeska, thanks for that on-topic and highly relevant insight! XD
              Last edited by Stinga; 11-21-2012, 08:11 PM.
              ~Stinga
              stinga@t4c.com

              Est solarus oth mithas

              Comment


              • #22
                Originally posted by Stinga View Post
                My pleasure, Poch. Just to be clear : get your end first. All 300 of it. HP gained per level is calculated from current base end. If you REALLY want to do things right, get 300 end, then 90 int, then 60 wis.. you get extra mana per level per 30 points in wis and int, with int giving you more. If you can get your hands on some sweet GM weapons (Tidal Blade, Windslash, Tempest) to level with, it might be feasible ^^ although I would advocate getting mana shield (76 int) soon-ish after AP if you want to do group levelling at TPs.



                And I would argue that the 115 earth power would help just as much against your dark mage regardless, especially if the warrior has dodge and therefore less attack. No lvl 140 dark mage is going to outdrain an AB+3 with AP and plague/major.



                I'm not familiar with 4th Saga, but in general if you build a warrior for anything other than PVP you're doing it wrong.

                And lol @ Jeska, thanks for that on-topic and highly relevant insight! XD
                Awesome, im at about 240 end right now, slowly but surely getting him built.
                Is the same 30 stats in wis and int for mana, the same amount of stats for health (not for this toon, but for when i am building before my last seraph) because i have always been curious, and im glad to know how much to get before moving onto the next stat.

                And i didnt mean anything rude @ jeska, i just wouldn't build a toon based on a bug..

                Comment


                • #23
                  1-59 wis = 0 mana, 60-119 wis = 1 mana, 120-179 wis = 2 mana /per level up... and so on
                  1-29 int = 3-5 mana, 30-59 int = 4-6 mana, 60-89 int = 5-7 mana /per level up... and so on

                  So, if your base intelligence or wisdom is at that specific range, you will always receive the specific range of max MP per level up..

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    ^precisely what he said

                    For end it works in a similar manner but in chunks of 20 end.

                    Edit bis : regarding jewelry (just in case), I would advocate using Ring of the Berserker (and Gladiator's ring) in your final build and not Ring of the Lion.
                    Last edited by Stinga; 11-22-2012, 09:54 AM.
                    ~Stinga
                    stinga@t4c.com

                    Est solarus oth mithas

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Originally posted by Stinga View Post
                      My pleasure, Poch. Just to be clear : get your end first. All 300 of it. HP gained per level is calculated from current base end. If you REALLY want to do things right, get 300 end, then 90 int, then 60 wis.. you get extra mana per level per 30 points in wis and int, with int giving you more. If you can get your hands on some sweet GM weapons (Tidal Blade, Windslash, Tempest) to level with, it might be feasible ^^ although I would advocate getting mana shield (76 int) soon-ish after AP if you want to do group levelling at TPs.



                      And I would argue that the 115 earth power would help just as much against your dark mage regardless, especially if the warrior has dodge and therefore less attack. No lvl 140 dark mage is going to outdrain an AB+3 with AP and plague/major.



                      I'm not familiar with 4th Saga, but in general if you build a warrior for anything other than PVP you're doing it wrong.

                      And lol @ Jeska, thanks for that on-topic and highly relevant insight! XD
                      exactly! I have a lvl 177 Darkmage on Saga, and i can barly outdrain a AB3. lol

                      Good to know about the SB, i have a archer with 190 SB atm.

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        Like I said before I would be hesitant to be set on one particular thing on Saga at this moment as it appears like we may get an update?

                        Listen to Stinga. I tried to get him to comment on the other thread you started but that one is now obsolete.

                        Jeska. How did you get to study these bugs in 1.71? You seem to know more than others about such things.

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          1.71 bugs wont mean anything thing for much longer, word down the vine is 1.72 is soon.

                          I never really understood it anyway, isn't sb supposed to make the other guy stun/lag like? Meh dont respond to that. offtopic...

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            Originally posted by Flash View Post
                            Like I said before I would be hesitant to be set on one particular thing on Saga at this moment as it appears like we may get an update?

                            Listen to Stinga. I tried to get him to comment on the other thread you started but that one is now obsolete.

                            Jeska. How did you get to study these bugs in 1.71? You seem to know more than others about such things.

                            Make a level 25 mortal char, get him a fast weapon with 100 SB or something like that. Then make a warrior with same weapon without SB. You can see that the warrior with SB wins the other warrior with 100 potions, because the other warrior wont even hit you because he's stunned 24/7, even with only 100 SB.

                            But that will be fixed with the next version i presume.

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              I myself play on a 1.71 server (Neerya) where the staff found out about the SB bug and nerfed hard SB boosts on addon stuff to make for an healtier game balance. They also buffed up endurance boosts on various items so the stun effect lasts less time.

                              And pvpers on Abomination knowing the game from the inside out found out very quickly something odd happened to SB as soon as the server updated to 1.71, see the topic about "the last hope...".

                              I find it unnacceptable that no hotfix were provided to servers last year when that bug was found and corrected on NMS-Révolution to correct such a game breaking bug obligating most servers have to live more than a year with. When Armor Penetration was not working in the early 1.60 days, T4CV2 quickly provided fixes to servers within a month it has been found out and corrected.

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                Originally posted by Iva Major View Post
                                Earth Resist and Earth Power are the only resistances you should ever get as warrior. There is no discussion about it.
                                I am amazed how many people suggest earth resist as a way to resist entangle. You people should go check its not based off earth power, rather its based off casters str. Since you cant resist str earth resist is a waste.

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